Video: Beyond Allyship, Stories of Impact From MARC Alums

Julie Nugent, Senior Vice President, Global Corporate Services & Community, Catalyst recently sat down with two Men Advocating Real Change (MARC) champions and alums, Karl Preissner, HR Director – Global Equality & Inclusion, P&G and Gavin Kimmel Category Manager; Executive Director of the Board, Men Advocating Real Change (MARC), Chevron to understand how the program has changed their personal perspectives and organizations. This panel is part of the 2024 Catalyst Awards.

MARC (Men Advocating Real Change) is a Catalyst initiative that inspires men to leverage their unique opportunity and responsibility to be advocates for equity. Watch this special experience with panel of MARC Alums and discover:

• Insights into their individual journeys of personal growth and transformation in advocating for gender equity.
• Practical and effective strategies for fostering gender partnership within their respective spheres of influence.

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Transcript

00:00:04,604
I have an incredible panel with me, two amazing partners of Catalyst from Procter & Gamble and Chevron. So I’m going to do a quick introduction and then I’ll get started. So immediately
to my right is Karl Preissner, HR Director of Global Equality & Inclusion at P&G.

And then next to Karl is Gavin Kimmel, Category Manager and Executive Director of the Board for MARC at Chevron.
So please join me in welcoming them. (Applause.)

00:00:34,267
So it’s terrific to have you both here today. And certainly given all the work that Chevron and P&G have done with MARC over time, we really wanted to take this opportunity to talk about the impact that it’s made in your workplace and to really think about MARC alumni and kind of what the ripple effect is.

So going on our theme around the Catalyst Effect, right, where we’ve been talking about all day today, we really want to think about the ripple effect that has happened inside the organizations and help you all really think about some of those lessons and stories for your organizations as well that you can take back.

So let’s kick off by way of introduction. Please share your background with us and how you became personally involved in gender equity at your organization.

Karl.

00:01:18,745
Sure.

So Karl Preissner, as you said, you know, I was thinking about this question. You told us you’d ask for it and I think maybe in some ways how I got here, my experience with MARC, I was an Eagle Scout growing up, so there’s something about the Scout motto of, you know, you know, always help others.

But also I remember growing up, my mom grew up in a family where women were not expected to go to college. You know, her father, my grandfather, sent and paid for, you know, my uncle,
but not my mom. And so she ended up paying her own way through city school and went on to get a master’s in education. So as part of my background, a little bit.

But I think really where how I came to MARC and I think my experiences when I was like, I really want to get involved in this, were more in my career in R&D. So I’d spent first 18 years with P&G at R&D, last seven, now leading a lot of our quality inclusion work. It was really in R&D, where I started to see, you know, we’d face these sticky challenges that really rarely had clear answers to them. And the collaboration was really what allowed us to innovate and was also a place where I saw the impact that bias can have.

You know, I, I remember the first time I ran a consumer test for laundry products and I saw how I could take one product that had worse stain removal, you know,  this one got ketchup out worse
than the other one, but I made the one that was worse a winner just by putting in a nice perfume. So consumers are telling me this one cleans better, even though it really doesn’t because of something completely unrelated, the perfume. It just is a signal.

I think, like when those light bulbs started going off, I started to think maybe these patterns play out in how we work with each other as well.

I think, like when those light bulbs started going off, I started to think maybe these patterns play out in how we work with each other as well.

00:03:07,520
And I think they do. So for me, this is really an extension that just the best basis for us to innovate is really inclusive leadership and I think MARC is all about that.

00:03:19,532
I love that, and I love the brand promotion, Karl. We’re a big P&G household. I live in Cincinnati, so that’s amazing. It’s a great, I think it’s a great example of that and we know that MARC equips
both men and people of all genders, so across gender lines, to advocate for equity and inclusion.

That’s the whole purpose.

So it’s really critical and it’s very relevant.

00:03:37,550
Thank you, and welcome.
Yeah, sure.

00:03:38,651
Gavin.

00:03:39,752
Yeah, so I’m purely here by accident. There’s no like grand plan at all at work here. So going back,  I suppose you don’t know me. I am a Marine. And when I was in the Marine
Corps, every day I would go off to work or, you know, do whatever. I would talk to my wife. And I’d just be like, “All right, babe, I’m off to go save the world.” Right? And it just became
this joke of, you know, I’m going to go save the world. In fact, it’s a joke I use today, you know, like, “How’s it going?” And I was like, “Ah, living the dream.” You know, like,
“No, I’m saving the world.” So then we had a daughter. We had a daughter. So my firstborn was born in 2013. And she changed my world. Like, she’s absolutely, If there’s anything that I can say is the reason I’m here is because of her, right? And so, you know, she’d be a little girl and, you know, I’d be off to work and she’d, you know, “No, Daddy, stay. No, daddy, don’t go.” I’m like, “It’s okay, baby. Daddy’s going off to save the world.” And then, you know, that just became our thing.

00:04:41,247
So as we started to look around and kind of observe the world around me, realizing that there was still quite a bit of inequity and that the system really wasn’t designed to be supportive of both genders. Right?

It was very much, you know, designed and tailored for men.

Right?

Created by and made for men.

And so as I started to observe these things, you know, I got to thinking and I was like, well, if I tell my daughter every day that Daddy’s going off to save the world140 and I do nothing about it, am I actually saving the world?

And so, you know, I decided to do something about it.

…if I tell my daughter every day that Daddy’s going off to save the world140 and I do nothing about it, am I actually saving the world?

And so, you know, I decided to do something about it.

00:05:17,884
And it just so happened right around that same time our CEO, Mike Wirth, came up and he in his inaugural address to the company, encouraged people to participate in a program like MARC. And I said, “Alright. Sounds cool. I’ll go do that.”

You know, started asking around and I was just sharing this story with him that, you know, there was no MARC available where I was at.

And so I was like, “Well, if nobody else is going to do it, I’ll do it.” And so I had a grassroots moment of, you know, developing MARC for, you know, the area that I was in. And that’s how I got started with MARC.

00:05:54,954
Great. Thanks, Gavin.

Well I love that senior leadership support, right?

When we know it’s present in both P&G and Chevron, and it’s so critical to have that support in terms of making progress around gender equity and specifically for MARC. So I’d love for you all to share a little bit more. Both of your organizations are very committed to gender equity and making progress across gender lines. So I’d love to hear more from each of you because you’ve done it
very differently.

So P&G, Catalyst has been working with P&G on MARC for many years, and we’ve done many of our MARC leaders immersive programs where we go in for a day and a half and really do a deep
push there. And with Chevron, we’ve done a lot of great grassroots programs with some of the MARC teams. We’ve also done some of that work for P&G. So the approach has been different and I think both very complementary and a lot of ways in terms of the progress that you’ve seen.

So I’d love for you both to share a couple of stories with us. I know we’ve had our share of many of them and share with the audience kind of what that’s looked like over time and how that’s evolved. Karl?

00:06:56,215
Sure.

You know, I think at this point, P&G is involved in just about every MARC program we’ve got. That’s right. But we started really with the workshops.

Yup.

And behind the idea that your research had shown, which has certainly played out for us, the number one thing that gets men involved in gender equality is seeing senior men involved. That’s right. And what is interesting to me as well is that we now do some of the things that it sounds like you were doing more of and they are complementary.

But, you know, I think for us it really has been part of our journey. You know, I think in a company where we want everyone to succeed, where all of our employees matter, it has created a space
for some, for people like me, who maybe didn’t always have vehicles, forums to talk, discuss, partner, ask questions.

Right.

And I think it’s not accidental that it is paired with, it was just last March we hit 50% of you know, we had balanced representation at our management levels.

It’s incredible.

And that’s, you know, I don’t, that is not accidental.

00:08:03,983
I think also we’re getting our best results while we also have our most diverse and, you know, representative organization ever.

Right.
So it really, you know, MARC’s been a key part of that for us.

00:08:17,230
Great. Thanks, Karl. Gavin?

00:08:18,598
Yeah.

So we have a variety of, we’ll say, Catalyst products that we use. So first and foremost was the MARC Dialogue Team.

Yeah.

That’s our bread and butter, our blocking and tackling, you know, whatever idiom you want there. And so those have been just wildly successful. That’s probably our longest use of MARC. And then on top of that, we’ve started to integrate things like the MARC Immersive Workshop, MARC for managers, the CBT, what’s it called, MARC Foundations.

Yup.

So you know, there’s a bunch of different varieties and different ways that we try to reach people where they’re at. And I think that’s the key to it all is you’ve got to be able to bring these conversations to where people are, not where you want them to be.

Right?

244
00:09:02,041
That’s right. That’s a really important point because as we’ve, you know, MARC for us is now in every region and every business and at all levels, but reaching people where they’re at. I remember early, early days when we would have a conversation, sometimes they were awkward fit.

We’d have a conversation in Europe that sounded like it was a conversation appropriate for North America. Or we’d be sharing examples in Latin America that weren’t from from the everyday lives of the people who were showing up.

And we had to make some mistakes and then realized that we needed to meet people where they’re at. Talk about examples of where they’re at. And I think also that is we’re, I won’t say learning it again, we know it, but we are learning how to do that again as MARC. We’re working with you on and Catalyst on MARC on the, On the floor. We call it, MARC on the floor.

I think for the front lines, right?
Right.

That is also its own audience, culture, patterns and we need to talk in ways that are relevant to them.

Yeah.
So it’s absolutely correct.

00:10:02,668
That’s great. One, it’s such an amplification of the work they were doing because we know that this is relevant for everyone. And I think, you know, I’d love to hear a little bit more because this work is is difficult, right? I mean, we’re in agreement on that. And the conversations that you have in MARC and around gender equity and talking about gender partnership, they can be challenging for people.

Right? That’s the whole point.

And we always talk about we’re not shaming and blaming. That’s in fact the opposite of what we’re trying to do. We’re engaging people and helping them come in a way that is comfortable and in a way that works for them. So I’d love to hear from you all about, you know, the ways in which this has manifested and what maybe some of those stories or aha moments have been, because I know
I’ve seen a lot of them and in actually delivering some of the MARC content and working with so many supporters around the world.

But I think that personal element is so critical to how you actually do make change. Yeah. Gavin, you want to start?

00:10:56,656
Yeah. So it’s funny that we were actually just talking about this before we came up here, but we planned the whole session about 5 minutes before.

5 minutes ago.

100%.

Just flowing with it.

But yeah, it’s [MARC] absolutely impacted my life. It’s impacted the relationships that I have with my wife, that I have with my daughter, that I have with my coworkers, both men and women.

But yeah, it’s [MARC] absolutely impacted my life. It’s impacted the relationships that I have with my wife, that I have with my daughter, that I have with my coworkers, both men and women.

Right?

00:11:17,343
I think that’s the part that kind of gets glossed over is when we say gender equity, immediately our minds are like, women. And that’s not the case, right?

Men and women have very different communication styles. We have very different perspectives. We have different like life experiences. And so what MARC really does is it tries to bring that together so that we’re talking the same language. We’re on the same page.

00:11:39,699
And so when I look at, you know, how I then engage with my male colleagues and how I communicate with them, it really helps me to articulate thoughts differently and honestly better. And then inversely, I can then communicate better and have those relationships and talk with my female colleagues. And it’s a skill set that I didn’t have before.

Yeah.
Right?

I used to be very blunt. You know, and I was like, “Well, it’s just the way I talk.” And, you know, you go through those justifications.

You can be purposefully blunt now.

Yeah, exactly.

Intentional.

But, you know, it teaches you things and it gives you that context. And we were just talking about, like, it’s taught me to be humble and it’s taught me
to kind of set my ego, set my pride aside and really just listen.

00:12:28,714
We were just talking out in the hallway about that. Still hears me.

Right.

Oh gosh, what’s that song?

From Disney?

No.

Because we were talking Disney for a little bit there.

It’s not Disney. Simon and Garfunkel.

Oh you talk Disney without me?

“Sound of Silence.”

Thank you.

Oh.

I was going to get there eventually.

“Sound of Silence.”

And in it it says, you know, people are hearing without listening, or other way around. Basically, we can hear words and we can absorb information from the outside, but it doesn’t get into your heart. It doesn’t really get to the core of who you are. And you’re missing so much value from what somebody else is trying to communicate to you. And it’s really about that, that interpersonal communication and really just deeply caring about somebody other than yourself.

I love that.

It’s that empathetic listening, but also just being, like walking in someone else’s shoes like they say. Right? Just really understanding that.

00:13:23,035
Karl, what’s been your experience in those aha moments?

00:13:26,539
I mean, some of them for me personally, were uncomfortable.

Yeah, sure.
You know, having and what I love is having some space to not be perfect like because if I’m, you know, if I’m going to be perfect,
then what do I have to learn? But I remember very early on even some things which I, surprise in retrospect, I didn’t know. But some of the patterns that get discussed about, say, you know, promote men for potential, promote women for performance, right? And I remember having a conversation about that, and I was reflecting and saw that I’d participated in that and thinking I was absolutely helping someone out. And they did get them advanced. But, you know, I was unaware of as a fish in water a bit about
just some of the patterns I was playing out.

And so that was, so MARC was a place where I could have those conversations. Maybe I could share some of that. Maybe I could talk to someone else about, you know, about those experiences and then figure out,
okay, well, what do I want to do different?And, I, that’s true for other employees as well, other participants, the other, people of all genders really, have come up after MARC workshops to share different insights that they’ve had.

You know, there’s one exercise in particular we’re very early on where you cross the line and it’s a chance for, when different aspects of life are read out. Cross the line if you’ve done this or if this was part of your background. And without fail, that always has some people coming up to talk about, “Boy, I had no idea. I never knew. I assumed this. I assumed that.”

So I really think it is just, it’s been a great place for people of all genders, particularly men, particularly when we don’t have these conversations to really learn these things. So I sorry, it’s a little bit of a long winded answer, but the experiences are what it is. That’s the point of it I think in some ways.

00:15:23,322
I think another thing too is it taught me to be comfortable with being uncomfortable.

Yeah.

Right.

So yeah, it’s- it tore down walls that I thought I had built up around me and just, you know,

I was kind of living in a little bubble. I don’t think anybody self-identifies as a misogynist or as somebody who is just like, outwardly biased towards people. I think we all generally think we’re doing all right.

And so what I love about MARC is it kind of like holds up a mirror to yourself. And you’re kind of like, “You’re not as cool as you think you are, bud.”

I don’t think anybody self-identifies as a misogynist or as somebody who is just like, outwardly biased towards people. I think we all generally think we’re doing all right.

And so what I love about MARC is it kind of like holds up a mirror to yourself. And you’re kind of like, “You’re not as cool as you think you are, bud.”

And so, you know, having that that aha moment and really just looking at myself and be like, look, you know, these behaviors are not okay.

I can continue doing these behaviors and life will go on, but I won’t grow to the potential that I could be as a human being. I think that’s really what it really boils down to is how do I be the best version and best human being that I could be?

Even outside of a professional setting, right?

And so when we talk about like the impact of MARC, like it is completely undersold. It is professionally impacting, it’s personally impacting and it impacts the people around you relationally. Like, there’s no part of your life that it won’t touch.

And so when we talk about like the impact of MARC, like it is completely undersold. It is professionally impacting, it’s personally impacting and it impacts the people around you relationally. Like, there’s no part of your life that it won’t touch.

00:16:43,769
But I love that testimonial, Gavin, and thank you. And Karl, do you want to add?

Can I build on that?

Yeah, please.

00:16:48,207
Yeah, I think because for me it really was the first time that it was asking a new question and just a general like what is the experience of the insider? Right? But it was, it was the first time I talked about what’s the experience for men. And for me it was
so cool about that.  You talk a little bit about this as this is the first time that I started reflecting on what are the costs to me? And what are the opportunities for me? You know, I think so much of my prior experience in how we relate to other employees could have been.

I’ll summarize it to say it was, how can I help this other person? And that’s necessary, right? I mean, there are other privileges and advantages, things like that. But MARC was also a place where I could start to say, “Well, what’s my stake in this?” And I think just as you’re talking, remember, my relationship with other men has improved because I’ve had a space where we can talk about, okay, what are the you can’t put one group in a box without putting another group in a box.

…my relationship with other men has improved because I’ve had a space where we can talk about, okay, what are the you can’t put one group in a box without putting another group in a box.

Right.

So what box am I in? And what how is my relationship with my friends in that confinement?
Sure.
And I think also too, but just in the way P&G has has sort of we’ve had it and then expanded it with MARC, is just looking at
how we take care of all of our employees that we all benefit.

00:18:13,125
So, for instance, you know, something, as we have advanced gender equality, we took a look at some of our policies and we’re like, “Boy, you know, why are we why do we have differences between genders on parental leave?”

And we did. When I joined and when we started with MARC. And then as we looked at that, we’re like, “You know what, this  actually doesn’t reflect on our values.”

And so for me, it parental leave for caregivers, it may have been an idea that was an insight that came from mostly women who are caregivers. But when we deployed it, you know, it was for all of them.

So I benefit, right? And to be honest, I’m benefiting right now. My parents are you know, if you’ve got older parents, 85, I had to take time off to help them. And in the past, maybe those things might have been career challenges or maybe someone’s like, you know, shouldn’t your wife be doing that or something? What are you doing?

Yeah.

There’s some stereotypes that, so all of it’s just to, the whole point of that is just to say it has been a place for me to reflect on the opportunities and costs that I face. Even if this wasn’t, if it was just about men. And I think that helps create a better experience for everyone.

00:19:22,294
I love that because it’s amplification. And how does this work impact everyone and how does it go beyond even the intent? And just to round out our conversation today, which has been great, and I knew it was going to be so fast, right? But some great nuggets here. I want to think about the advice for folks in the audience and address what we have found at Catalyst in our Engaging Men research  is that the number one reason that men often don’t engage in this topic is fear based, right?

So who here in the room, show a quick show of hands, has ever been afraid to say something or to speak up at work? Or even in your personal life? Every hand in the room, right?

It can be it can be really challenging. And you do feel like you might be in a box. Like, okay, I don’t know what to do. I don’t want to say the wrong thing. I don’t want to come across a certain way, right?  There’s a fear there. And that is the number one reason that men tend to not engage in this work, is what we found.

So I’m curious for those in the room, what advice you both would give, having lived through this and having done so much personal reflection and self-reflection and working with so many folks across genders, what’s the advice to maybe overcome  that and to really focus truly on gender equality and building that inclusive setting?

Either one of you can start. Jump in.

00:20:43,542
I think for me, it’s probably don’t wait to be perfect.

I love that.

Do not wait to have the answer.

I mean, and, you know, I was just thinking that I remember it may not have been the very first, but it was one of the very early meetings I had when I was talking to some folks about MARC and I got it so wrong. Like I remember at the end of this, one of the leaders raised their hand and asked if this was, and they didn’t use these words, but is this some type of Proud Boys men’s rights movement or something like that?

Right? Way wrong.

No, it’s not. Not hitting the mark at that point. And I learned. Right? You know, I mean, that was, I learned about how to have those conversations, how, you know, what questions are going to come up? If I’d waited to be perfect, I never would have even started.

Yeah.

And that’s just true with anything in general.

So I will also say that the imperfections can be the power in themselves.

00:21:40,899
One of the, we have something, which we call MARC Dialogues and inspired by MARC conversation, which P&G has, and every session starts off with the leaders at the front of the room. It’s a cold open talking about the mistakes they’ve made.

Yes, love that.

Because when we can share the mistakes we’ve made, it creates a space for other people not to be perfect. And I mean, that is ground zero for learning. So, I’d say, “Don’t wait to be perfect.” You know, in fact, the fact that you’re not perfect is exactly where you need to start.

I love that.

00:22:12,130
It’s great advice. Thanks, Karl. Gavin?

00:22:14,466
Yeah, so, I would say, “Be bold.” I think somewhere along the line an entire generation was told that you’re not enough. And I don’t think that that’s true. I know that’s not true. So if nobody’s told you, you are enough.

For those of you who have seen the Barbie movie. It’s an amazing movie. If you haven’t seen it, go watch it. I wasn’t paid to say that. But in it and I butcher quotes and things like that, so you’ll have to forgive me, but I’m going to paraphrase. But in it there’s a scene where one of the main characters talking about the dynamics of being a woman, how they have to be strong, yet submissive.

They have to be, you know, this and that. And there’s always these opposites that they’re having to accomplish all while maintaining niceness and prettiness and all this kind of stuff.  I think in a sense too, like men struggle with that. And I don’t think that’s something that’s talked about a whole lot.

You know, men are supposed to be stoic, yet sensitive. You know, they’re supposed to be strong and, you know, an authority. But they also have to be meek and humble. And so there’s a lot of these opposites that both genders struggle to reconcile.

You know, men are supposed to be stoic, yet sensitive. You know, they’re supposed to be strong and, you know, an authority. But they also have to be meek and humble. And so there’s a lot of these opposites that both genders struggle to reconcile.

And so I say that to say when you come across the point of what it is that I need to do to feel safe, to be vulnerable and be okay with that, that’s a really heavy question. That’s a really hard question. It’s a very individual question.

So to circle back to why I say, “Be bold,” if you fall into that category and you have those fears and you have those concerns know that, you know, your colleagues will support you. Put your faith in people a little bit. And I’m a cynic by nature. So that is a really hard statement for me to say. And it’s taken me quite a bit of a journey to get there.

But have a little bit of faith in people and be bold in that. And if you’re on the other end of the spectrum and you have people in your life that you’re like, “Look, you need to benefit from this.” And be bold with them and say, “Hey, look, you know, I love you, you know, but this is a gap for you. This is an area that you struggle with. And I think this program would help you.” Or something along those lines. Right? Like, we need to be bold with those that we care about.

And be bold with them and say, “Hey, look, you know, I love you, you know, but this is a gap for you. This is an area that you struggle with. And I think this program would help you.”

Yeah.

00:24:39,978
I love that. Thanks, Gavin. At Catalyst, we talk about it’s about progress, not perfection. So what you said, Karl.

Yeah.

And the other thing that I would just leave us with, and then we’re going to introduce a brief exercise that we’re going to do
to kind of bring some of this to life for everyone in the room, but, is be intentional, right?

Be intentional in your leadership and what you choose and how you choose to say it and how you choose to show up.

And I appreciate both of you because you are intentional leaders and have curiosity, which I think is so critical for this work.

Yeah.

And trying to make the progress that we all want to see in the workplace and beyond.

00:25:15,814
So, Gavin, Karl, thank you so much for joining us on the panel today and we really appreciate it.

I think they’ll be around a little bit, perhaps for questions and we’re going to actually do a quick exercise. So everyone, please join me in thanking them for their terrific insights.